Individual results

Poor sound quality can hear interviewee clearly but wouldn't be able to use in any A/V presentation.

Name: Mohan Lal
PA Number: PA2671/4/24
Ref: C2C/160905/INT/32
Date of interview: 16 September 2005
Date of Birth: 20 June 1935
Origin: Jullundar, Punjab, India
Gender: Male
Religion: Hindu
Caste: Rajput
Came to England: 1951
Came to Coventry: 1951
Language of Interview: Punjabi

20 June 35

Your full name: - My name is Shinda Kaur.
D.O.B:- 24/11/45
Religion/ Caste: - Kashar, Rajput.
Place of birth: - Punjab. Her birth place is Banga.

My father first send sponsorship, I passed year 10 in 1951. From Punjab I came here. Some people went to other places, but I came straight. The passport was made to come and study.
When we reached Bombay, my father had sent the finance. There were 5/6 of us. From Bombay station to Nurmahal station. There was one boy and others were ladies. When we reached Bombay, Porbandar, somebody stole our luggage. We said to them we have come here, they said "no you are going to England, your ticket are with us". Who know who it was? At the end it was the agents with whom we were going to stop. They did everything, the tickets were sent from here and everything was done. There were some of her relatives. I went to them, there we had to obtain a no obligation certificate, when we went to the office there was a lady and she asked "why are you going?" I said "I'm going to study". No there is not much English up to year 10 and also I am going to my dad, so it will be okay. There was a Singh in the office, he quarrelled with me a lot and said "either show me a letter or a sponsorship which has come from there''. I said without looking for that "it is 40 Western Street". My father lived there for a long time. He said "no". For half an hour he was quarrelling, and I stood up and walked away. My uncle was watching through the window when he saw he is a sardaar (Singh) he said. "Contractor come in, is this your son?" he said "why didn't you say before?" I said "what would I say before you have to do your work and I do my work!" with great difficulty we got on the plane the next day. The agent was standing outside and our luggage was there, and he said they are just waiting for us. At night, we were walking around Bombay. The two boys said "they were working at the port as well".
When I arrived they were just removing the flight steps. When I stepped on the front "stop" they said, "Come quickly". While he was climbing the plane ladder, they started moving it that is what happened with me. We arrived here after 2 months.

Where did you arrive?
In Liverpool

Was your father there?
When was in Bombay, every man had gone there; Mohinder Kishan Singh, Kukar Kabul Singh, 8/9 of them. When they saw us in Bombay one night before they asked me where I was going to go? And I said "I am going to Coventry". ''In Coventry to whom?'' I said to Nantram, Kishan Singh, Kabil Singh, and Mohinder Singh. They all said "sit down write to your father not worry about anything as they are all coming to Coventry. Then I wrote to my dad so he said "now there is nothing to worry". After arriving here have breakfast and they had to leave Kishan Singh, Ninder Sankria said "will you recognise your father?" he said "no I won't I was only 3-4 years when my father came". My brother came I have got a photo, by looking at it I can recognise.

My brother came inside and Kishan Singh said "we will come ourselves". They pointed out they must be the one when we arrived at the immigration, they interviewed me, checked the passport asked me few question, what is your name? I know that I said "look my father is waiting there". He turned around put a stamp on the passport and he said "go". When we got out it had snowed it was very cold. My father said "first thing is let us buying you a coat".

Which month was it?
This was one week before Christmas.

You celebrated Christmas here?
It was 1950 Christmas and I celebrated here

At that time, did you know what was Christmas?
No, I had never seen snow. I could hardly walk. When I came here for the first 2 months, I didn't go out, I sat by the fire. It was coal fire. Brother showed me how to put the coal in the fire.

When you first arrived here what were your thoughts, atmosphere and weather?
There is a vast different between now and then. In those days, everybody got together at the weekend on a Sunday. If somebody or someone's son has come from India "let us treat him with a drink"
For 2 months I didn't know who was coming and going. One person from our village came at night from Southampton. He knows who I was and he asked for my dad and nurtured his name. I said "he has not come yet", after a couple of minutes he called me again.
He said "come down", I said "what is he going to do now", "I don't know". Then he said "let's go and have a drink". Then he said "no it is very cold just stay here". He was a businessman; he always had a bottle with him. He offered me a drink and I said, "I don't want to drink", he said "not even if I am from your village". He was quite older than my dad. When he had gone to India I had seen them. I had a feeling and I asked him "is your name Daleepa?" he said "yes I am the one". Then he said "when I went to India, you were very little, you were not even in year one." I said "yes", people from all over Birmingham, Coventry came to see me and asked, "How was India", but nowadays nobody is bothered if anybody is coming or going. In those days if someone went from here there used to be a party one day before. There was lot of love from one another. Gurbashan Singh, Kartar Singh of Nagra, Tara Singh of Dadayal, he took a turban for my grandfather, since that time we have been friendly. Nowadays even relatives don't take gifts. Since that time and now there is a vast difference.

At that time you didn't know much English? How did you manage?
First, I went to a night school. They used to write on the board and I quickly picked up. After a year, I started knowing little English.

Where did you go at the night school?
I went to a night school in Coventry, it was a Technical College and they had branched. There was a school in Briton Road, Walsgrave. You must know.

Who was teaching there?
The white people.

The white people?
The white people.

Were they our people?
Yes, they were our people. They knew a little English. One had come from Bombay. They learnt from each other.

For how long did you go there?
I went for one year. I went to Leicester. In Leicester, there were our people from Nurmahal. I worked with them and at night, I went to college. There I went to the college for 2 years and then I came back to Coventry. 54 I started receiving letters, 18-26 years it was compulsory National Services for 2 years you had to go.

Then did you go?
Yes, 2 years but I stayed there for 4 years. Lot of our people went back, my dad also said "you go as well" and we will call you back. There was no need to tell lies. I spoke the plain truth. I said "I have spent so much money, it was £60.00''.
During that time £60.00 was a lot of money. I said, "we don't have so much finance so that we can come here and then I said you do your job and I have been there for 2 years, so what?''

In what year did you start?
In 54-55 I went. The letters were coming in 54, telling me to go there. For 5-6 months, telling me to go here and there. Then from here, where there is a police station, opposite there was a job centre and in there was a labour exchange, army air force. They would take us in a coach where we had to go.
From and to Podgate, Warrington in Lancashire there it was basis training for the first 8 weeks. It was for 8 weeks, 3 of them went, my father Vjager Singh who is in Leamington, Father of the priest and son of Rame (?).

Sohan Cheema?
No of Rame. He is dead now. He was poorly before my father. He worked in Starlem. His leg was caught, he could not work again. Then they all 3 went. After 8 weeks we got 1-2 weeks leave. They said "come here you will have to come to Coventry''. Where do I go now? After that I went to Nottingham, Newton stayed there for half a years. Then I went to Stafford. After Stafford they sent me on a course to Blackpool, (Weeton?). It was a 6 month course. I obtained a Technicians qualification. Because I had done everything on the ground, repair, machines etc. then I went to Bicester near Oxford. From there I did 2 weeks course. Then they gave us 2 resettles, which is called Halldaar. Here they say Coup. By that time, my time finished.

Will you tell me about the experience?
You were saying some of our people had gone back.

Tell us something about the National Service?
That time there were only 2. Some of them were apprentice for 5 years it was apprenticeship. All the age of 16 years left school. 16-21 whoever got apprenticeship. It was okay. If nobody got the apprenticeship, they had to go after 21.

Those who worked in Colliery?
They were exempt, because they were already working for the government. That time people were not working in Colliery, very few. The 2 class fellows from Nurmahal also went back. They asked me I said, "I went to stay, you go". After one year they came back, now one is staying in Walsall, one is in Oldbury. They asked me "there is nothing wrong with me, after 4 years I am still here and there".


Did you not go back because of money, or you would be spending a lot of money in going and coming, or was it better doing the National Service?
When I was in India, the younger one was always interested in medicine. Now he is a doctor, when I passed year 10 and I went to the college in Phagwara, by the time the sponsorship went, maybe I will join the army. If I don't find any other work, naturally I had that in mind.

Tell me something about where you were having training, were they some of our people as well?
When I stayed there for the first 8 weeks. There was nobody. They were all white people.

How many people came from there?
3 - 4 it was a basic training camp. There were 80-90 boys.

Was there… (?) in the Camp?
No, there was nobody in the camp. It was only me, when I was on the 6 months course in Blackpool; there were people from different station. I met a Singh boy there; we were eating our meal when we finished work at 4 o'clock. He said to me and came and sat on the same table with me. We were talking; I asked him "how long have you been here?" he said "1year". Then he asked me how long I had been here? I said "2 years". There was another boy from London. His station was in London and our station was in Stafford. One man was Nadanlal Talvaar. He was a sergeant, when he saw 25 of us in a room it was like being in a hospital with beds. All the boys got scared. He said "let's go home". He lived in Meridian Court and there was a child and a wife. He for six months… (?). Because at that time my father had a shop, I asked "where do you get your lentils"? He said "I go to Birmingham", when I came at the weekends, my brother and my mother said "you take the lentils from here".
I took one pound this one pound that 2, 3 types and gave them. It was very good. Then he was transferred to Germany. Then we moved to Oxford, Bristol. From there we came home.

The other people who were with you, how did they stay with you?
They were very good. There was no difference between a black and white especially not with me. After one year there was training. Half people on one side, half on the other side. I save half of them and attacked the other half. It could have happened anytime within 24 hours, and at that time the immunisation of bullets were all blank. The house was the same. After one year there was a ceremonial parade Maurine marshal came from London, when he saw me for the first time, he used to see whether my clothes were ironed or not and what sort of person is he? My clothes were up to date, buttons were polished. He stopped for a minute and said "that's how it should be" after that we were at Newton after Nottingham. Then we went to Himalayas expedition, they were from there. They said to me "where are you from?" I said "from Punjab". You must be knowing the Himalayas", I said "yes". He said so and so I said "yes". There was a little village…(?) in Birmingham. Come there, even Sunday in the afternoon everyone went to the church and met everybody else. When I first came and joined the army there was Dharm Basra, Kartar Singh. There were few pubs in Coventry, where the black people were not allowed in. and now where there is a job centre.

In town?
Yes in town.

Were all the estate agents one?
In the city where the Job Centre is. It was on the other side. There was one pub. At the time I came in my uniform and went to the pub. They said "go here". There were 8-9 people standing outside. It was like nobody should say anything. I went in all the white people stared at me, I didn't talk to anybody. I went straight to the counter. The… (?) stared at me when I opened the door. He had no guts that anybody could go out. I put one shilling, I went and said "give me half a pint" and he filled it up. I gave him 6 pence. After drinking I put the glass on the counter and he said "you can't go yet". I thought he would give trouble. He filled half a glass and said "drink this it is from me" and then he asked me "how did you come?" I always had an identity card which I kept in my pocket all the time, I said "you are right as well", I showed him my identity card and he said "okay". The other 5, 6 people and my brother were standing and they got worried that he has not turned up. After one hour I came back and they said "why did you take so long?" and I said "he started talking to me, he said drink some more". After that many pubs on Foleshill Road near the fire station, there were so many pubs where you could go in the bar or lounge but not in the shock room. Now they say Raj Mahal have started Indian Association Worker. I don't believe that. There was one West Indian where there is a temple now, there used to be a pub, I heard them saying to Raj "you are a president go with me". They got together and sorted out the transport and why don't you accept our people in the buses, and Raj Mahal was blanking it. When everything was done all sorted out Raj Mahal said "he sorted it out" but it was a West Indian lad who sorted it out.

At that time, were they any West Indians here?
Yes a lot of them, not so many as now, but just as many as our Indian people very few. Our unity was little but most Indians had a very strong unity.

Did they socialise with us?
Yes they did. At that it was not like are an Indian and you are a West Indian. They talked to our people. The white people had a difference with us. Not them.

Do you think it was due to that?
In 59 there was a big change. Brewery people, if anybody dues this we will take action against it. Then it never happened. When my dad came, nobody could even open a shop. The shop they brought first, the people who have lived here very long time, know about it. Krishna Mann was High Commission whatever there a meeting was, he always came, he said to them "apply to the court, if they refuse me will back you up". First, they helped, and then they opened a shop in Swans Well Street, where there is a hospital now. Otherwise, the lentils (dal) were sold in a shop where there is the Evening Telegraph now. The white man owned the shop. He had come from Indian people brought lentils from there.

One thing I want to ask is, when you were in National Health Services, how did you manage with food?
There was no precaution at different stations it was different. In the morning, we knew it was cereal. There were eggs, bacon or sausages. Sausages were beef sausages and I didn't eat them much. If there was nothing else to eat then we had to eat them.
In the afternoon, it was the same at every station it was written what it is. If at a station it was not written then I would not eat.

How did you feel about it?
It was alright I didn't mind. Once there was 5,000/6,000 boys when we went to a course in Blackpool.

Was it a Friday?
Every Friday people finished work at 4 o'clock and they went straight to fish and chip shop. Once the fish was such nobody could eat it. Then it was a Saturday, when it came to Monday, there was a Medical Officer, he came to check and he said "it was the wrong fish and they found it themselves" otherwise the food was very good it was like a buffet pick up the plate and ask for it and sit down, it was not a self service. 12000 boys sat in one cafÉ, and the other 2,000 sat in the other hall. 2,000 sat on the side; it was half to three quarter of an hour in the morning with three quarters of an hour we had to be finished (?).


Did you not thing about the chapattis (rotis)?
No, never remembered the chapattis. No in the morning I used to eat bread, cereal and cornflakes, egg, bacon and a cup of tea. In the afternoon I ate bread with soup, dinner and then there was a sweet dish, rice pudding. At 4 o'clock it was a cup of tea with about 4 things. Now we have been and eaten food at (Saraan?). It was the same way. Start from one side, take what you want and go and sit on the other side. After half to three-quarter hour you have eaten and come out.

When you were with your father, did you eat chapattis more?
Yes I did I used to cook one. We were 5-6 people. My father asked me if I could make chapattis, I said "I can make chapattis but not Dal (lentils)". I used to knead the flour and make the chapattis. At that time, we were 15-16 people.

In which house were you?
In 40 Western Street in Hillfields, where there are 11 storey flats now. At that time, whoever came first from work, he would fill the kettle with water and out it on the gas, and he would knead the flour. Then the next one came he washed himself and filled the kettle again etc put it on the gas. They used to make chapattis in turns. The chapattis were quite big. Some people were in groups of threes or fours. We were me, my father, the cheema, Shadiraam said (?). First 2 weeks, Shadiraam said you take a rest. I said "no I will make chapattis". "You make the dal" he said "that is good you know something".

Whose house was it?
It was 4 people. J.S and Harbans Singh went back to India. They gave everything to my dad; first you look after and do everything. Sohan Singh said "the house was £500" they shared and bought the house. When Jagar Singh came back, he didn't ask for any accounts. Then I had very good friendships. Well now also Vjagar Singh is the same.

Vjagar Singh was he from the village or from the in-law side?
Not no one was from Jagrama one from Ludhiana.

When you finished NHS and came to Coventry did you do any work?
There was one man Naranpindija. When he came he said "where is he?" they said "he is upstairs'' lying and he called me and said "let's go and look for a job". I said "no, I am on 2 weeks leave". He forced me and we went to take a bus and went to Jaguar on Browns Lane. There was a so big queue, let from this shop to the traffic lights. I said, "We will go slowly and have a drink''. By that time it will be 4 o'clock, he said "no". First, there was one manager, and then there were 2. The lady came and gave the forms to everyone. When our turn came after half to quarter of a house I had a letter from the air force and a leave. I worked at Oxford when they saw that letter, they didn't ask me anything. There was a reference number on the letters. They said, "When would you like to start, today or tomorrow?" I said, "I'm on 2 week leave". They gave me a letter and said "come a week on Monday at this time, come here". The other man, he had already worked in Jaguar car. The manager said to me "he had already worked here before his check number is okay, but his name is not correct". He said to me silently, "tell him I am Metha." I said "it is the same Metha'', that time his name was wrong when he left. His name on the passport was wrong, he went to India and he changed his name to Sohan Singh and when I said to them "he was Metha, but his real name is Sohan Singh". At that time everybody who changed the name came because where there was fighting in China in 62. After that when Nehru came, he said to the headquarters "if you have a passport like this, don't question then just issue new passport." At that time when our people came to know they made a lot of money. Some people took £100 some £200. There was one man working with me at Jaguar Car, I said to him "we will write a letter to Birmingham, fill in the form and pay 28 shillings each" and after 4 weeks our passports arrived, the children passport. We asked how much money I wanted I said "what for?" he said "for the passport". He said "people were asking me for £60". I said "give this £60 to the children".
Since that time, he became very friendly with me. He is still now. He goes to the temple and he is a Singh now. It was Baljeet, my nephew's akand path, we were coming down and Kabul Singh Kukarpunia he said "how are you Mohan?" Kabul Singh said we came together from India. Everybody started starring; they were surprised I said "we came together from Bombay".

Do they live there as well?
Kabul Singh, Kishan Singh from Kukarpunia. They were 8, 9 of them. They are the one who told us to hold the spoon in the plane, just eat with your hands, otherwise you will learn gradually. Yes around about that time. I don't know their surnames. They went and came again.

Did you celebrate Christmas when you came here?
Our people didn't celebrate Christmas at that time, they just got together and had a drink, meat was cooked at the weekend and everybody got together.

At that time, did anybody know why you celebrated?
The people who lived here for a long they knew but we came to know gradually. All we knew was that we were going to get 2 holidays, when I came it was a 46 hour week. Saturday was up to 12 o'clock. It was included within the week. Now a day even 38 hours is a lot of work.

38 hours are enough?
At that time it was 46, then 44 for a long time. Then 42 then 40 and now when we finish it were 38 hours in 1992.

When your mother did come here?
She came in 56/57.

How long did she stay here?
I think until 87. In 1987 she died

Who did she like here?
In 40 Western Street, there was a Gaye Shankaria his wife. Then they both used to get together, and Gurbachan of Rurka's wife and all the people who stayed nearby they got together and had a chat. At that it wasn't that they went to work, when we got married, everything went from here. Even the Shri Guru Granth Sahib (the holy book). Prem Singh, many people know him now as well, Prem Singh Bhatria. At that time near Philips shop there was a pub called Leopard pub. Near it was a house of Mohan Singh. Many people lived there.
Kewal Singh they all lived there. We paid £35 for the food in that cafÉ.

So the marriage cost £33?
Paid £35 and there was a pub upstairs there. We all went about 30 people including our friends, in-laws relatives. Only 5 of us went to Nottingham. Everybody had a drink at King Pub in Hillfields. The next day I asked the Rame of Goraya Sham Lakshar he still around. I asked them "how much money?" they said "we don't want to take any money, and then Ramjee said it cost £3. Lakshar £3, so it came to £6 and Ramji'e elder brother said "I don't want your money". Ramiji said "it cost him £4''. I said "how come his was £4 and your £3''. He kept on having whisky; I said "the house was at the rear. You could have picked the bottle from there''. ''No" he said. In those days with £10 about 35 people could drink.

Then the people came at night, they had a pint first. There was a lot of food at night. It was for £35, we said "who's going to eat all this?" he said it is all yours because you paid £35. After that 3, 4 times we had a party. Once it was all people from Gurbachan Singh, Chalman Singh, the hall was small. Only about 25 people could sit in the hall. At that time brother got them together. Then it was normal people. In those days people didn't mind, they said it was okay. I think they were about 45 people and it didn't cost us even £100. It was less. All the people from Coventry said "well done, well do". It was more people from Rurka and Nagra and one another. All the people from Indian Worker Association and all… (?) after that people went to… (?) In those days people didn't go out they just stayed at home.

Why did your father come here? Did he know anybody? Was he here for a very long time?
I can't say anything about it. I can say is my grandfather was in Africa.

Which place?
Somebody deceived him and he went back to India. There was an old goldsmith from Nurmahal. He worked in the Railway and he helped a lot.

It must be East Africa?
I think so. There was a road to Bahawalpur and there they had a contract. There was a line to … (?). Like Beake Avenue.

Towards Pakistan?
It is long time ago, when we came we used to hear that the train had started to this side. Otherwise, people used to walk. I think from there they had a chat and there was 3, 4 people from the village, that is how they came here.

Did anybody know them here?
Not anybody. I just heard from my dad one line like lodger, take a bay and sell good, whenever they reached, slept the night there. The previous generation know not the present generation. Nowadays there is only one person in the house and he says "this is mine. This is mine". When he came we didn't even see any radio, TV not even lino. Very few houses had it. There was 2/3 people slept on one bed.

When your father came did he start…?
No it was started before. There was a Kartalm S Nagra secretary. All the regards go to Kurtar Singh Nagra. He was the president; he said you come with me. After that, Randhawa Atwal and Bakshish came and they worked as contractors and my father said "no". Their thinking was different and he had a different thinking when Randhawa came back. Indian workers Association was not there any more. They were all separated.
In my there was a procession we used to walk in it once or twice, I waved a flag and my dad said "carry on in the procession" not otherwise.

Where did the procession take place?
In the town

How many people gathered there?
About 20/30 Indians and others according to the society. The May Day was normally a labour day. At that time there were 100/200 people. It took about 1 - 1 an half hours to go through the town.

Did you go to the cinema to see the films?
No I used to get a film from London. My father showed me once and then I went on my own. From Indian home they took us to Euston Station. There were 4/5 men, dad, Sohan, Ramevahle from Chakh and Raajmahal. First, there was Earlsdon, then near pool meadows then Gurdwara Nanaksar. Then often that it was the picture house for a long time. At that my dad was not there, everybody was separated. When my dad was there, we knew that we had few… (?) moving and nothing for the whole day. We thought we'd go and see the picture and meet the people as well. The picture started at about 3 o'clock. People started coming at about 11 o 'clock. The ticket was 1 shilling and 3 pence to 1 shilling and 9 pence. They said we will talk and go to see the film.
Did you see lots of films?
No, I came afterwards.

You came later?
These came before I came

Afterward in the Ritz?
Sometimes we went. It was before we had relatives from Jullundhar. There was a film made of Dara Singh and Samsung. They came at our house to eat and there was a picture at Palladium Cinema. They showed three shows. It was 10, 12 o 'clock and one in the evening at 6 o'clock show because during day times lot of people came. And whenever our people we used to give leaflets. One house was number 740, all the food and everything was there. There were 3 shows and it was house full.
I think it is 63/64 and about that time…(?).
There was a photograph of somebody standing with Dara Singh. Dara Singh came twice to do wrestling. At that time, I was living in Darliston with those boys who are relatives now. I used to come to and from to those boys. They said "we will go and see the picture and also Dara Singh is coming".
I think it was 54/55 when I joined the army. At that time then he came to do wrestling. At that time they took responsibility. Nowadays they should work then say, "It is my money". They target how much was their… (?). To bring them up. They say it was your responsibility. They don't realise it is their reasonability as well to look after the parents. The big boy is in Coventry, in Sewell Highway. One is Tarsem Cheema, one who plays the dhol. His nephew living in Elkston Street. The second daughter worked in Walsgrave Hospital. She then went to London. From there they came to Green Lane. They brought a house there and the school is near to the house for the children. We were together in Wolverhampton sitting together.